Wed 29 Dec 2004
Great! I’ll post the first entry here for a new discussion.
For my part I will try to keep my comments/entries short on the topic. (Unlike the last time we had a discussion here.)
Anyone else – please jump in with comments.
For the record: my purpose in discussion is to understand things more. My goal is to arrive at a “right” understanding, rather than “be right” or win an argument. But “arguing” really helps me clarify my thinking, so don’t mistake a *passionate* discussion here for a *bitter* argument.
Below is the start of a new topic from “Anonymous.”
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From: Hertzler blog
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Many people have different fundamental understandings of what Jesus is all about. He was the Messiah. I say was, because he did that way back when. He isnt The Messiah anymore. He came He obeyed out of LOVE, and He left. No more messiah. Who is Jesus now? That is the question we need to ask ourselves. Embrace Christ ! you said. Give Jesus a hug…is what I got from that. Jesus was born…it was an event. He was a special baby. We dont say, ” in the name of Baby Jesus”. Because he was that, and did that, and grew up to be an adult. So we should not be using the words, Jesus Christ. They are meaningless. It is the same as saying Jesus The Messiah. Just because you use the greek doesnt give it any extra special meaning. We need to present jesus as he is today.
December 29th, 2004 at 10:25 am
Yes, Jesus is relevant today, but making sure we understand that is a challenge. While I agree that referring to the man as “Baby Jesus” is not appropriate at this point, I think his name, Jesus Christ, still applies. If I understand the New Testament, he still lives in both a physical sense and a spiritual sense.
While that view is pretty contrary to current secular thinking, it’s what I’ve concluded after looking at the whole situation.
So I think that means that a relationship with Jesus is possible today. Not just in an abstract, “imagine it” kind of way, but in a real, spiritual way.
December 29th, 2004 at 9:36 pm
You can keep calling Jesus, Jesus Christ. Just as long as you know you are just saying Jesus Messiah. You could call him Lord Jesus. That would bring his name to present tense. Many religions say Jesus Christ. Few there are who call him Lord Jesus. Jesus Christ is so universal. The Title Jesus Christ is so past tense. Jesus is now. It isnt the name that saves. It is the relationship that saves. And its really about a “personal relationship” that I hear so much about. Do we get to a personal relationship with Jesus just by asking for one? Or do we follow the new testament teaching and begin our relationship with The Holy Spirit? The Spirit of Truth is spiritual reality. Do you have a personal relationship with The Holy Spirit? ——–Posted anonymously by batbreath aka unclelarry
December 30th, 2004 at 10:06 pm
John 14:26
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
December 30th, 2004 at 10:26 pm
Yes. Lord Jesus is a more fitting name. I guess I forgot that “Christ” means “Messiah.”
Boy, you bring up some deep issues. While I can quickly state the way I have come to think of things (“relationship with the Lord Jesus”) I can’t so quickly explain why I arrived at these words.
And while the Holy Spirit lives in me, and I have a relationship with Him, I am not immediately able to explain why or how or if this differs from my relationship with the Lord Jesus or God the Father.
Here’s my excuse for today: I just spent all day speaking Hungarian, and I’m exhausted. My mind can barely keep a single thought coherent right now. Maybe tomorrow when I read this again I will have some better comment!
January 1st, 2005 at 10:21 pm
From Uncle Larry: You would know if your relationship with the Holy Spirit was different than your relationship with Jesus or God our Father. That is if you had a friendship with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is Jesus’s earthly representative. He teaches us about the word, and helps us remember the word. He answers questions and he likes fellowship. He will guide you on your path thru your day. He is here now. Just as if Jesus were here now. He wants your friendship. Jesus is here physically and spiritually because the Holy Spirit is here. Its Christianity’s best kept secret. To think of Him as a force, or as a symbol, or simply as inspiration, is an abomination. He is here now with as much dignity and power and rapore as if Jesus were here. And who is Jesus? He is the head of the church. And we are the church and the church is his body. We are his bride. We partner with Jesus thru The Holy Spirit. That is what we need to share with today’s youth. We need to share what is happening today. We can have power in our lives when we partner with Jesus. Christianity is about today and what Jesus is doing today thru The Holy Spirit.
January 10th, 2005 at 12:25 pm
I couldn’t agree more.
The thing I need more thinking on is whether and how my relationship differs between the Holy Spirit and Jesus and the Father. It has not seemed to matter too much to me in the past, given my understanding that it has been the Holy Spirit working with me on a daily basis to make me more like the person of Jesus. Given a triune God, the distinctions between their personifications seemed less important to me. So, in the sense you describe below, absolutely, I have a friendship with the Holy Spirit! Do I stop each day and renew that friendship? Not as often as I need to, but as daily as I remember.
The thing you said on our last discussion that got me going was our comments about guilt. In the context of the discussion with the guy who didn’t believe Jesus was God, the issue of guilt is different than in the context of a discussion with someone who believes that.
If one rejects Jesus’ claims to deity, then I want to know how that person plans to resolve their guilt. What guilt? The guilt we all have.
If one accepts Jesus’ claim to deity and accepts his forgiveness, then the discussion of guilt changes. That guilt is gone; it has been forgiven. Yet, at the same time, the person who has received forgiveness still does things that produce guilt. It’s just that the guilt has already been forgiven. So yes there is guilt, but no there is not guilt. It seems to depend on the context of the discussion.
What are your thoughts?
January 10th, 2005 at 8:20 pm
Larry here: Our Father, Abba, is able to write out checks that cancell people’s guilt when they die. He writes them out and signs them with Jesus’s Name. Jesus died for everyone. The person who dies without haveing a personal friendship with Jesus will get a back row seat at all the events in Heaven. He might not be invited to the inner circle of those who really know Jesus and The Holy Spirit and Their Abba. Where do you draw the line. For the christian, I call it “in fellowship” or “out of fellowship”. And if guilt is nagging at the believer, then its the Holy Spirit working with your soul to get you back into the word. Who is the last person you had a conversation with?
January 12th, 2005 at 9:38 pm
Larry Here: It is about Grace. We dont know the terms. The non believer is said will suffer judgement. We dont know what that is. What is this “guilt” you speak of? Something we all have? Do you mean SIN? I think your concept of the Trinity could use some rework. How do you get personal with a non personal creator? You dont. Therefore, The Trinity is a personable Creator. God spoke to people. Jesus spoke to people. The Holy Spirit SPEAKS to people. He is our connection to Jesus. He wants your conversation. He wants dialogue. He wants you to be you. Not to be Jesus.
January 12th, 2005 at 11:28 pm
Ah, now here is something we can discuss!
(The “last person I had a conversation with” was “Battrick” – in the comments on the post on this blog at http://hertzlers.com/blog/2004/11/good-article-on-e-vangelism.html#comments)
I would draw the line you describe at faith. While Jesus died for everyone, not everyone will be sitting in heaven after their life on Earth ends. Only those who believe will. From what I read in the Bible, God’s judgement on unbelief is far worse than simply being relegated to the “back seat” in heaven. The descriptions I read are about “weeping and gnashing of teeth.” [Matt 13:42 among others] While I can’t comprehend an eternity of suffering, I have seen enough suffering to get the idea that real and enduring suffering exists in the world we know presently. If I can see it here, it seems quite possible that there are other realms of suffering I don’t yet know about.
Feelings of guilt in a believer are certainly evidence of the Holy Spirit working in that person’s life to draw them back into a close relationship. By guilt, I mean SIN, yes. When we do things that violate God’s moral law, we have guilt. No one can keep their *own* moral law, let alone God’s moral law, so everyone has guilt. (Ok, so I violate my own moral law. What’s so bad about that? Morals are not arbitrary. If they are, then we have no basis of condemning Stalin and Hitler or praising Mother Theresa.)
You’re right. We don’t know the terms of grace. Why does God show grace? I am unaware of any explanation other than it was his choosing. And you’re right about judgement, although we have some clues. It is never described in pleasant terms. We may not know exact details, but Jesus spoke enough about unpleasant realities of judgement that makes me want to avoid it.
One of the things most valuable to me about my understanding of what Jesus did is its “growth.” That is, as my own understanding of my sin/guilt grows, I see that the grace of Jesus grows and covers it as well. Rather than needing to minimize my own corruption, I can live with it and know that I am completely forgiven. My tendancy is to minimize my problems and tell myself I’m not as bad as the next guy (something anyone can do and something that means nothing – except for that one guy who is truly the worst.)
I like your description of the Trinity.
One of the challenges I face in this discussion is the fact that my working knowledge of many of these issues is rather thin. Yet the subject matter is immensely deep! It’s hard to quickly reply when I could spend weeks researching the issues before I write the first word.
The Holy Spirit wants me to be Jerry, the person he made me to be. But he wants Jerry to learn the character qualities of Jesus; patience, goodness, kindness, love, etc. That is what I would say is being like Jesus; having the same character qualities but retaining my unique personality.
Why do you want to make God so nice? He’s loving, sure. He’s good, sure. But is he safe? Can we predict him? I fear God. If he chooses, my life is over in a second. I exist at his mercy. Doesn’t this invoke fear in you? Like the fear you have of your police force. You don’t live in dread; you just fear what you know would happen if you get caught violating the law. Likewise with God.
“‘Safe?’ said Mr. Beaver…’Who said anything about safe? ‘Course he isn’t safe. But he’s good. He’s the King, I tell you.’”
–The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe (C.S. Lewis)
January 14th, 2005 at 4:55 am
Larry Here:
This blog has me driving into the word. That is a blessing for me. The Holy Spirit gives me permission to be a free-lance christian. My only God given moral law is: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Jesus fulfilled all the law. Matthew seven twelve.
So whats the difference between a protestant christian and a born again christian? You have lots of characteristics of a protestant christian. What are your born again characteristics? Do you have a one on one personal friendship with THE HOLY SPIRIT? Have you heard HIS VOICE? Do you have a prayer language, in an unknown language? Alot of born againers have just gone half way. They just got the fire insurance and didnt sign up for active duty. The Holy Spirit will call you into active duty. You have been called to do the things Jesus did. It can be beyond fighting demons and helping the lame walk, and the blind see. It might be listening to someone share at the drinking fountain. Jesus did that.
I thought Romans chapter eight would be your solution to understanding ones guilt. There is alot of talk about Jesus and christians being sons of God and christians being co heirs with Jesus. How can you read any of this chapter and agree with it when your interpretation of who Jesus is, doesnt include his earthly soul?
If you try to obey the ten commandments, then you are saying you are a Jew. This is the second time I have called you a Jew. Someone who lives in the desert and is following God, a semite. The first one is about putting God first in your life. Some jews like to put FOOTBALL first ahead of God. The second one is about slandering the name of God. It isnt about saying Jesus Christ. Because this was written before Jesus is on the scene. Have you ever heard anyone say Jehovah in a slanderous way? It clearly says “the name of God”, so that allows people to say “God Darn”. The third is about keeping the sabbath holy. I am sure you do that. right? I bet that is the one that is the hardest to keep. 4…honor your mom and dad, 5. no killing (another human). Are we allowed to kill a mosquito on our arm? 6. no adultery, 7. no stealing, 8. no lieing. 9 and 10 are about coveting…wanting something better than God has already given us. You are a Gentile. You are not held accountable to ten jewish laws.
My fear of God is respect. I respect Him. I am not afraid. Absent from the body present with The Lord. Death would be a gift. yes, I would miss my family. I would miss surfing the internet. I would miss my plans for retirement in oregon. Maybe there is something better waiting for me on the other side. God is my father. He sees me as a pure, innocent, sinless and guiltfree. I am his child. My life projects purity and perfection because I am seen as forgiven thru Jesus. He is very safe. He is not predictable.
God our Father sees us as pure. Jesus sees us as perfect. The Holy Spirit sees us as we are. He knows all your problems. He has answers for all of them. He is spirit without a body. He is spirit. He has a voice, Jesus’s voice. He speaks to us in dialogue when we study the word, in prayer. He speaks to us when we are driving the car, when we are in the shower, when we go get the mail, when wake up in the morning. He can speak to us in our mind. He can speak to us like He is standing behind us. We hear a voice, and turn around and no one is there. The Holy Spirit is always speaking to us. We are not listening. We have blocks up. Unbelief is one of the biggest blocks. Being out of fellowship is another block. Except The Holy Spirit will speak to you anyways. If you give him first place in your life, in your daily life…ie, the first commandment. Then he will guide and direct your path. He will even settle for third place…after your wife and children. He covets your friendship. It is a gift you can give Him.
January 14th, 2005 at 6:52 am
Larry Here: I dont live a perfect life. My life is full of problems. I break driving laws all the time. I was in a parking zone longer than fifteen minutes. But it was raining and I knew the cops didnt operate in the rain. 2. I drove off and left my drivers license at home. Driving without possession. That’s bad. 3. There is a new law now. We have to put our headlights on if we think we need to turn on our windshield wipers. I like driving in the rain without turning on my wipers. So i have to be extra careful in the rain. 4. A couple of weeks ago I was visiting a friend in Los Angeles. I ran stop signs and went thru one red light. It was accidental. I really am a good driver. I was new to the area. Will the cops forgive me? They would laugh outloud if I confessed. I dont feel guilty. I knew it was wrong. I did it anyway. Is that sin? No. I could ask forgiveness. I could try and do better. 5. Oh, I changed lanes with out turning on my turn signal. Thats really bad bad. whats it called? situation ethics. It depends on the situation what morals are right or not. We wont go to hell if we kill someone. I killed someone once. I was in a head on collision, the other driver died at the scene. I walked away unscathed. It was an accident. I was there. I was involved. it happens. Did God direct my path? You can live your daily life without guilt and sin. I have a list of things to do each day. Is that one of my moral laws? Thou shalt do the list first? I break God’s Law when I say No, to the Holy Spirit. It isnt the unpardonable sin. When I am not there to talk to Him. When I dont include Him in my day. I forget. I lose focus. I dont even have a song in my heart. Its missing. I have my prayer language. I will never lose that. It is a gift, and proof that The Holy Spirit is nearby. I know what and who i have experienced. Born again and Spirit filled. Thats what a christian is. I was born again for many years before I was spirit filled. I thought i was born again. Maybe i was just an enlightened protestant. I was a sinner then. I couldnt deal with guilt. Maybe I was just born half way. Maybe I was dealing with my unbelief. Spirit filling is supposed to happen when one is born again. Its a package deal. And it is there to be accepted. We are just taught to not desire it. So, we dont find the personal power of the Holy Spirit. It gets hidden. The Holy Spirit has to find us and draw us to Him. Unbelief can block that from happening. These days you need another spirit filled person to get you spirit filled. There have been stories of spontaneous filling. At my third day at a Marilyn Hicky Convention in Phoenix Arizona, she asked if anyone wanted to be filled with the Holy Spirit. My arm shot up. I was ready. I sat thru a chalk board lecture. Then someone helped me groan abit. something like that. and a wee small voice came out of me. I spoke my prayer language lots. I practiced. It sounds like hebrew to me. It sounds like gibberish to anyone else. I sing in it…I dont know what I am saying. I have an idea. My spirit is praising Jesus. something like that. It is multifaceted. multi functional. It is generally meant to be spoken in private. because any one hearing you would think you were out of your mind. and of course we are….
January 15th, 2005 at 4:58 am
Larry Here: I just want to say I am not some perfect person laying down dogma about someone I have not experienced. The Holy Spirit is real. He is here on the earth. He is here so Jesus can be here and everywhere. He is where He is invited. Just think if you had the opportunity to be in Jesus’s presence, wouldnt you drop all of your other activities and just be with HIM? Wouldnt you want your friends to meet HIM? And your relatives, your cousins, your nieces and nephews…wouldnt you want to introduce Jesus to them? I would. Dont you see? Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Trinity. Jesus said he would leave HIS SPIRIT to teach us and guide us and show us a safe path. And to help us remember the words Jesus has spoken to us. That could be future conversations with Jesus. It isnt imaginary. Its christian dynamics. And it isnt about being charismatic. It is about the time you spend alone reading the bible, and in your conversation with God. And in this case, The Holy Spirit. You cant bypass The Holy Spirit and go straight to Jesus. In Jesus’ Name, Amen. That does not work. The Holy Spirit will introduce you to Jesus. And you have every right to ask for His ID. Jesus will introduce you to His Father. If the prayer language is a stumbling block. Dont sweat it. Ask The Holy Spirit about your prayer language. You are already in some kind of prayer schedule. Something, surely. A Quiet Time? Just change your vocabulary. Instead of talking to God, or Jesus. Talk to the Holy Spirit as a separate person. As your friend. It takes faith. Establishing a Friendship isnt easy. Its built on trust. And desire. You could start off with what you know about Him. Perhaps He will share what He knows about you. There is some dogma that stifles the Holy Spirit’s recognition. The Holy Spirit will turbo charge your LIFE. You cant be a christian in the past, with old beliefs and be chained to guilt and sin. You have to be a christian of today. The HOLY SPIRIT IS HERE NOW. He will meet you in your prayer closet. Where ever that is. The Youth do not want to see a dead Jesus. The Jesus Christ of the Cross. They want to see Power and Dynamics. They want excitement. So,come on WAKE UP!!!! Give them Jesus of Today and The Holy Spirit who is here today. The believers can relate to Jesus on the cross. Even tho it is old information. Dont you see? It isnt about research and study to find specifics. It is about meeting a person in your prayer closet. The Holy Spirit. He is there waiting to begin a friendship.
January 15th, 2005 at 5:47 am
Larry here: I am trying to say I am just a normal person. No one special. I am just a guy in the crowd waving a flag. Difficult to see. Determined to be seen. Its about meeting His Spirit in your prayer closet. Instead of speaking to Jesus, or God…speak to the Holy Spirit. Talk to him as if he were seated next to you. As a new friend. Tell him what you know of him. It takes faith. Its a new environment. Ask for some recognition from him. Listen for His Voice. He will speak to you. Words you can understand. Dont let a prayer language be a stumbling block to meeting the Holy Spirit. If Jesus were here, wouldnt you want to spend time with Him. Its the same for the Holy Spirit, because you can spend time with Him now today. You can be with him all day, eyes closed or eyes open. Its called walking in the spirit. The Holy Spirit will introduce you to Jesus. And you have every right to ask for His ID. You cant bypass the Holy Spirit and go straight to Jesus. I would not lead you astray. Born again and spirit filled. Its a package deal. Being born again, you need to press on to fulfillment. It takes faith. And desire. And trust to develop a new friendship. You can decline. You can just stay where you are. God can work with you as you are now. But you will be missing it. That personal relationship. You can stay stuck in the past. You can be afraid of a loving father. You can worship as you wish. You can be in that christian bubble of safety and security. But you will be basing your christianity on the past, and not the present. And if you want to sell Jesus to the Youth of Today, then you have to tell them who Jesus is Today…and who the Holy Spirit is today. And you have to speak from experience.
January 16th, 2005 at 4:42 am
Larry Here: I kinda overwhelmed myself with verbage. Two paragraphs that said the last sentence of the first paragraph.
Its like seeing black and white all your life, and then realizing color exists. I red Benny Hinn’s book, Good Morning Holy Spirit. His experience paralells many other people including my own experience. I would send you a copy if you so desired.
I am reading it again. I think I need a refresher.
Have you read Romans? He answers the question about guilt. If you have trouble understanding it, then you
have a study partner nearby.
Comment?
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