While that view is pretty contrary to current secular thinking, it’s what I’ve concluded after looking at the whole situation.

So I think that means that a relationship with Jesus is possible today. Not just in an abstract, “imagine it” kind of way, but in a real, spiritual way.

Boy, you bring up some deep issues. While I can quickly state the way I have come to think of things (“relationship with the Lord Jesus”) I can’t so quickly explain why I arrived at these words.

And while the Holy Spirit lives in me, and I have a relationship with Him, I am not immediately able to explain why or how or if this differs from my relationship with the Lord Jesus or God the Father.

Here’s my excuse for today: I just spent all day speaking Hungarian, and I’m exhausted. My mind can barely keep a single thought coherent right now. Maybe tomorrow when I read this again I will have some better comment!

The thing I need more thinking on is whether and how my relationship differs between the Holy Spirit and Jesus and the Father. It has not seemed to matter too much to me in the past, given my understanding that it has been the Holy Spirit working with me on a daily basis to make me more like the person of Jesus. Given a triune God, the distinctions between their personifications seemed less important to me. So, in the sense you describe below, absolutely, I have a friendship with the Holy Spirit! Do I stop each day and renew that friendship? Not as often as I need to, but as daily as I remember.

The thing you said on our last discussion that got me going was our comments about guilt. In the context of the discussion with the guy who didn’t believe Jesus was God, the issue of guilt is different than in the context of a discussion with someone who believes that.

If one rejects Jesus’ claims to deity, then I want to know how that person plans to resolve their guilt. What guilt? The guilt we all have.
If one accepts Jesus’ claim to deity and accepts his forgiveness, then the discussion of guilt changes. That guilt is gone; it has been forgiven. Yet, at the same time, the person who has received forgiveness still does things that produce guilt. It’s just that the guilt has already been forgiven. So yes there is guilt, but no there is not guilt. It seems to depend on the context of the discussion.

What are your thoughts?

(The “last person I had a conversation with” was “Battrick” – in the comments on the post on this blog at http://hertzlers.com/blog/2004/11/good-article-on-e-vangelism.html#comments)

I would draw the line you describe at faith. While Jesus died for everyone, not everyone will be sitting in heaven after their life on Earth ends. Only those who believe will. From what I read in the Bible, God’s judgement on unbelief is far worse than simply being relegated to the “back seat” in heaven. The descriptions I read are about “weeping and gnashing of teeth.” [Matt 13:42 among others] While I can’t comprehend an eternity of suffering, I have seen enough suffering to get the idea that real and enduring suffering exists in the world we know presently. If I can see it here, it seems quite possible that there are other realms of suffering I don’t yet know about.

Feelings of guilt in a believer are certainly evidence of the Holy Spirit working in that person’s life to draw them back into a close relationship. By guilt, I mean SIN, yes. When we do things that violate God’s moral law, we have guilt. No one can keep their *own* moral law, let alone God’s moral law, so everyone has guilt. (Ok, so I violate my own moral law. What’s so bad about that? Morals are not arbitrary. If they are, then we have no basis of condemning Stalin and Hitler or praising Mother Theresa.)

You’re right. We don’t know the terms of grace. Why does God show grace? I am unaware of any explanation other than it was his choosing. And you’re right about judgement, although we have some clues. It is never described in pleasant terms. We may not know exact details, but Jesus spoke enough about unpleasant realities of judgement that makes me want to avoid it.

One of the things most valuable to me about my understanding of what Jesus did is its “growth.” That is, as my own understanding of my sin/guilt grows, I see that the grace of Jesus grows and covers it as well. Rather than needing to minimize my own corruption, I can live with it and know that I am completely forgiven. My tendancy is to minimize my problems and tell myself I’m not as bad as the next guy (something anyone can do and something that means nothing – except for that one guy who is truly the worst.)

I like your description of the Trinity.

One of the challenges I face in this discussion is the fact that my working knowledge of many of these issues is rather thin. Yet the subject matter is immensely deep! It’s hard to quickly reply when I could spend weeks researching the issues before I write the first word.

The Holy Spirit wants me to be Jerry, the person he made me to be. But he wants Jerry to learn the character qualities of Jesus; patience, goodness, kindness, love, etc. That is what I would say is being like Jesus; having the same character qualities but retaining my unique personality.

Why do you want to make God so nice? He’s loving, sure. He’s good, sure. But is he safe? Can we predict him? I fear God. If he chooses, my life is over in a second. I exist at his mercy. Doesn’t this invoke fear in you? Like the fear you have of your police force. You don’t live in dread; you just fear what you know would happen if you get caught violating the law. Likewise with God.

“‘Safe?’ said Mr. Beaver…’Who said anything about safe? ‘Course he isn’t safe. But he’s good. He’s the King, I tell you.’”
–The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe (C.S. Lewis)

So whats the difference between a protestant christian and a born again christian? You have lots of characteristics of a protestant christian. What are your born again characteristics? Do you have a one on one personal friendship with THE HOLY SPIRIT? Have you heard HIS VOICE? Do you have a prayer language, in an unknown language? Alot of born againers have just gone half way. They just got the fire insurance and didnt sign up for active duty. The Holy Spirit will call you into active duty. You have been called to do the things Jesus did. It can be beyond fighting demons and helping the lame walk, and the blind see. It might be listening to someone share at the drinking fountain. Jesus did that.

I thought Romans chapter eight would be your solution to understanding ones guilt. There is alot of talk about Jesus and christians being sons of God and christians being co heirs with Jesus. How can you read any of this chapter and agree with it when your interpretation of who Jesus is, doesnt include his earthly soul?

If you try to obey the ten commandments, then you are saying you are a Jew. This is the second time I have called you a Jew. Someone who lives in the desert and is following God, a semite. The first one is about putting God first in your life. Some jews like to put FOOTBALL first ahead of God. The second one is about slandering the name of God. It isnt about saying Jesus Christ. Because this was written before Jesus is on the scene. Have you ever heard anyone say Jehovah in a slanderous way? It clearly says “the name of God”, so that allows people to say “God Darn”. The third is about keeping the sabbath holy. I am sure you do that. right? I bet that is the one that is the hardest to keep. 4…honor your mom and dad, 5. no killing (another human). Are we allowed to kill a mosquito on our arm? 6. no adultery, 7. no stealing, 8. no lieing. 9 and 10 are about coveting…wanting something better than God has already given us. You are a Gentile. You are not held accountable to ten jewish laws.

My fear of God is respect. I respect Him. I am not afraid. Absent from the body present with The Lord. Death would be a gift. yes, I would miss my family. I would miss surfing the internet. I would miss my plans for retirement in oregon. Maybe there is something better waiting for me on the other side. God is my father. He sees me as a pure, innocent, sinless and guiltfree. I am his child. My life projects purity and perfection because I am seen as forgiven thru Jesus. He is very safe. He is not predictable.

God our Father sees us as pure. Jesus sees us as perfect. The Holy Spirit sees us as we are. He knows all your problems. He has answers for all of them. He is spirit without a body. He is spirit. He has a voice, Jesus’s voice. He speaks to us in dialogue when we study the word, in prayer. He speaks to us when we are driving the car, when we are in the shower, when we go get the mail, when wake up in the morning. He can speak to us in our mind. He can speak to us like He is standing behind us. We hear a voice, and turn around and no one is there. The Holy Spirit is always speaking to us. We are not listening. We have blocks up. Unbelief is one of the biggest blocks. Being out of fellowship is another block. Except The Holy Spirit will speak to you anyways. If you give him first place in your life, in your daily life…ie, the first commandment. Then he will guide and direct your path. He will even settle for third place…after your wife and children. He covets your friendship. It is a gift you can give Him.